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Tommycourt
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
AllenR brought up a valid point when he mentioned the Underwood technology rounds versus other various self defense rounds. For the last day or so I have been reading and watching YouTube on the Underwood round. The ogive is copper and varigated with the defense round not having the penetration rate that a round nose would have. I am referring mostly to .45ACP. It's hard to imagine a 120 grain bullet that can cause that much damage with a smaller grain bullet than a 220grain Hornady Critical Defense round would have. I have seen where Ruger has come up with another round very similar to the Underwood but no real ballistic tests that you can draw a good conclusion with. Underwood has only 1 viewing on YouTube on the defensive round and the penetration round. I am wondering if anyone else has tried any of the new rounds and what conclusions have you drawn? I seem to be a little skeptical about the smaller grain bullet however as he stated technology has come a long ways in the last couple of years. Has anyone tried it and if so, what conclusions did you draw? They are an expensive round-about $35.00 for a box of 20 but you can't put a price on human life. I don't mind spending the money for SD, IF the round is as good as they profess. Anyway, at least it's food for thought.

Tommy
 

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a friend, retired police officer, carries Underwood XP in his Bersa 380 and S&W 9mm. He swears by them, and I respect his opinion.

In my own testing, shooting hams covered by khaki work pants, handloads wsing XTP bullets were the best jacketed hollow point. I liked the cast Ranch Dog design overall. I did not try any Underwood rounds though.

I carry usually the cast, especially during coat weather, or XTP during tee-shirt weather. Here is a video I like by Ammo Quest. I think he puts out some good stuff.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw[/ame]
 

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I look at it this way: if you're gonna carry a .45, then it seems like you would subscribe to the big, heavy, and slow theory. And you sacrifice capacity for that. If you want light and fast, carry a 9 or even a 40 and gain capacity! This round seems a little 'gimmicky' to me. I'd stick with gold dots or H critical defense. But that's just my opinion. I haven't done any testing on this ammo, these are just my thoughts.
 

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I shot a coconut at about 5 yards with a 9mm/115gr Critical Defense, the results were all I needed to see to make my mind up, very UGLY out come. God forbid I should ever have to bring my LC9s Pro into duty, but I know what to expect if I did.
 

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Sierra designed the V-Crown bullets in several calibers for Sig's new ammo line - and is offering the bullets to reloaders. I looked at an online study of Sig's ammo compared to (I think) Hornady's Critical Defense ammo. The gel test results favored Hornady a little, but the spent bullets looked pretty much identical . I suspect the Sigs weren't loaded as hot - so less penetration. The Sierras are open cavity hollow points, and the gel was not fronted with cloth in that online study...

Anyway, I found the Sierra bullets at Brownells, bought some 9s, 40s and 45s to load this winter.
 

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I carry Hornady Critical Defense .45ACP...185 grain FTX bullet going 1000fps @ the muzzle...936fps @ 50 yrds...863 @ 100 yrds in my Glock 30SF...Big & Fast !!




 

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Never been excited about any of the gimmicky exotic stuff. More and more it appears to be more about the look than actual performance. Tough to beat the long proven standards available from Hornaday, Federal, Corbon, Winchester and Remington. Personally, instead of worrying about what looks cool or what looks tough, I want what shoots best in a particular firearm.
 

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I look at it this way: if you're gonna carry a .45, then it seems like you would subscribe to the big, heavy, and slow theory. And you sacrifice capacity for that. If you want light and fast, carry a 9 or even a 40 and gain capacity! This round seems a little 'gimmicky' to me. I'd stick with gold dots or H critical defense. But that's just my opinion. I haven't done any testing on this ammo, these are just my thoughts.

The URLs below are tests on YouTube. They are really worth watching. They include barrier penetration, wound channel and penetration.


This is testing of 120g Underwood Extreme defender in 45 ACP

https://youtu.be/UV_1zXdDf4Y


This is comparative barrier testing of 9mm ammo as follows

135 g hornady critical duty
147 g Speer gold dot
124 g federal hst
90 g +p Underwood Extreme
Defender

https://youtu.be/0piGeTVMZWs

This is a comparison of Underwood Xtreme Defender in 9mm 90 g +p and 120 g +p+

https://youtu.be/ClJcJ8LQFbQ

I think it is good evidence of why I went from hollow point to Xtreme defender.

When I reviewed my post I saw it had an ad at the end. I have no idea how it got there and I cannot seem to remove it.
 

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Gotta check it out - but if the the bullets aren't available as components, I ain't getting any.

BTW I am leery of 'deep penetration'. I think it would be unethical to shoot my neighbor with 'throughput'.
 

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Tommycourt
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Just a thought but if I am going to carry a self defense round, I want it to be a factory made round. Reason being, should a BG attack you, you shoot him and he lives to testify, he will get some scum sucking bottom feeder that will say that you have built a "man killer" with malice. At least with a Hornady Critical Defense you stand a better chance of surviving an ordeal that was clearly built for the sole purpose of self protection. I am using Hornady because it states "defense". You are not an aggressor but simply a citizen who was trying to protect himself from a purchased round. If you go to court, you have lost your rights and the BG has all the rights in the world. The law is not fair and some sharp attorney will use that excuse. MHO!

Tommy
 

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Bored on a day off so I ordered a couple hundred $ of ammo. Didn't even consider this fancy smancy stuff. Went with old standbys - Federal HST, Federal Hydra Shock and Remington Golden Saber. Been very happy with them. :)
 

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Just a thought but if I am going to carry a self defense round, I want it to be a factory made round. Reason being, should a BG attack you, you shoot him and he lives to testify, he will get some scum sucking bottom feeder that will say that you have built a "man killer" with malice. At least with a Hornady Critical Defense you stand a better chance of surviving an ordeal that was clearly built for the sole purpose of self protection. I am using Hornady because it states "defense". You are not an aggressor but simply a citizen who was trying to protect himself from a purchased round. If you go to court, you have lost your rights and the BG has all the rights in the world. The law is not fair and some sharp attorney will use that excuse. MHO!

Tommy
This very subject came up in the last defensive pistol class I went to. Interesting because I carry reloads.

The end result was that it didn't matter if it was a clean shoot. It was brought up using that argument that you bought the extreme performance loads you still made a choice to buy a so called "man killer" cartridge.
 

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This very subject came up in the last defensive pistol class I went to. Interesting because I carry reloads.

The end result was that it didn't matter if it was a clean shoot. It was brought up using that argument that you bought the extreme performance loads you still made a choice to buy a so called "man killer" cartridge.
I have never found the logic in that argument. The intent is so obviously 'to buy a man STOPPER cartridge'. Death is clearly incidental. Your defense lawyer should only need to make clear that killing has no additional benefit.
 

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This very subject came up in the last defensive pistol class I went to. Interesting because I carry reloads.

The end result was that it didn't matter if it was a clean shoot. It was brought up using that argument that you bought the extreme performance loads you still made a choice to buy a so called "man killer" cartridge.
Not sure I should open this can of worms again but......
Here's a thread on the subject. :duck:

http://www.rugertalk.com/forum/f42/should-you-carry-handloads-s-d-4230/

FYI, It's long, long, long.
 

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Bored on a day off so I ordered a couple hundred $ of ammo. Didn't even consider this fancy smancy stuff. Went with old standbys - Federal HST, Federal Hydra Shock and Remington Golden Saber. Been very happy with them. :)
Brings up a question I'd like to ask, I know federal HST, there is also a LE version, is it legal for someone not a police officer to carry with this ammo? Thanks
 

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It pretty much has to be. That LE is, I think, the same deal as the Hornady Critical Duty. Barrier penetration.
 

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good question

I have been an avid watcher of shootingthebull410. He has not yet done .45, and at least with .380 and 9mm (both of which I own) , my own experiments tend towards hams as I don't have access to ballistics gel or a chrono. Anyway, none of the crucial defense rounds (those with a plug in the hollow point) would penetrate (or over penetrate due to clogging) in .380 so I tended to xtp rounds for my .380. My shield in 9mm did a similar job and for it I liked gold dots in 124gr +P, cobon dpi in 115 +P , and 147gr federal LE HST standard velocity.
The reason on all of these was that 1. shootingthebull410 recommended them as meeting FBI std of 12-18" penetration through clear and 4 layers of denim, and with me that in my pistols the penetrated a 12# ham either fully or at least to the bone where they fractured it with and without 4 layers of denim. I see no reason why my homemade method would not work with .45. Just a suggestion.
And no, we don't eat the hams after I've shot them. haha
 
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