Should you carry Handloads for S.D.

Discussion in 'Second Amendment and Legal' started by MagBlackhawk, Aug 21, 2015.

  1. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    First, I should say I watched the Zimmerman murder trial that never should've been from start to finish. ONLY because it was politically motivated!

    A while back I heard a radio interview with a self defense expert.
    The interviewer said if Zimmerman's gun had been loaded with handloads the prosecutor would have had a field day with that fact.
    He went on to say his handloaded ammo would have been called special killer bullets made for the sole purpose of murder.

    The experts take on it was, yes a slick prosecutor might fool a jury with the special killer bullet line, but that's not the real problem.
    He said the problem with home made ammo is the judge will not let the defendant MANUFACTURE EVIDENCE.
    What does that mean?

    Zimmerman told the investigators the shot was fired at point blank range. Testing of the same factory ammo proved that to be true.
    See where this is going?

    The expert said the distance could not be proven if the defendant used his own loads because NO judge will allow a defendant to manufacture evidence.
    So, testing of homemade ammo will not be admitted into evidence from either side.
    Proving the shot was fired at point blank range, three feet, six feet or more is out if using homespun ammo.

    Of course this trial was forced by the Fed (you know who) and is certainly not typical. But anyone could get Zimmermaned!

    The prosecutor called his gun "over loaded" because the magazine was full with a round chambered. Even wrote it on the board during closing!
    Insinuated Zimm was reckless because his gun had no external safety.

    I trust my handloads far and above any factory ammo. Never had a problem with them. The same can't be said of factory ammo.
    No modifications to my carry gun..... It's loaded with factory ammo..... I just don't need to have, "that conversation"!
    (Paranoid, nah just cautious)

    Assuming this expert was correct, what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  2. oldschoolfool

    oldschoolfool In the army now..

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    So let's zero in on the basic premise. If you handload and shoot somebody with a handload, the idea is that a judge, assuming you have no other loads from that batch, a judge won't let you make more for the purposes of testing to help either prove your guilt or innocence.
    First of all YOU wouldn't make MORE, regardless -
    1. Any responsible handloader records the data from each batch they make. Just like a factory does.
    2. Any decent ballistics department can reproduce the load, if not from the data sheet or card then from residue and evidence left by the shot, etc..
    3. Factory loads vary from lot to lot(very provable and obvious) just as mainstream handloading does.
    4. Not sure who the "expert" in the case was or where the information came from, but there are dozens of cases on the books where handholds have been part of a trial and have been tested from remaining rounds in the weapon or worked up by ballistic departments.

    Want to be as "bulletproof" as possible when you carry handloads? Then document that you load for consistency from load to load and batch to batch. Have "proof" targets on file with each load data sheet or card. Do not mix batches in your weapons or on your bench. Document what''s loaded in your weapons, the date and time you loaded those rounds. Have consistent reloading behavior that's documented and provable beyond the scope of simply carrying for self defense. Prosecutors have argued that +P factory rounds are excessive and are only for the purpose of killing, and as such speak to the intent of the shooter. It's a specious argument and any good attorney can shoot it down.

    I carry and shoot handloads and factory and frankly the only venue where the difference is markedly better for handloads is long range rifle. But I document everything, I've been loading for 30+ years and I have a documented history of trying to improve my personal shooting performance and round performance by reloading.

    Besides, there's always been the cool gadget factor when reloading.

    Oh, as an afterthought, remember why you'd be in front of a judge to begin with. To determine whether or not the shooting was justified. Not whether or not the right bullets were in the weapon. Just be a responsible shooter and have a good attorney.
     

  3. squirrelhunter

    squirrelhunter Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I've heard the same thing about using handloads and how the attorneys call them "killer bullets" and about the testing and stuff,that's why I only carry with factory ammo. But the "killer bullet" thing gets me because aren't guns designed for "killing" in the first place?? That argument is just so stupid. If you're not wanting to "kill" the attacker to defend yourself then don't carry a gun in the first place,bring a stun gun or maybe even a squirt gun :D.
     
  4. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    oldschoolfool,
    At the time of the interview I heard the "experts" name but can not pronounce it much less spell it.
    I searched for the "experts" name before posting but could not find it.

    The interview was aired on Gun Talk Radio hosted by Tom Gresham. His show can be found online as well as radio stations around the country.
    Not trying to give old Tom a plug so....................

    My bad, probably shouldn't pass along information without a good solid defense. :duck:


    EDIT: Found the guys name right here on this thread, Massad Ayoob. (Thanx SHOOTER13.)
    Now you know where this information comes from! Massad Ayoob.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  5. VThillman

    VThillman Active Member

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    Magnum, what I think is that you are right, A to Z. Oldschoolfool, I think your arguments are thoroughly logical - and the court, i.e. the presiding judge, may not allow them. What is eventually presented to the jury is controlled by the judge. The odds are pretty high that, if any of his calls are overturned on appeal you will have spent considerable time in prison.

    That said, my bedside gun (I seldom 'carry') contains my reloads. My workplace gun contains factory (Critical Defense .38 Special +p) factory loads. Some small portion of that situation reflects my assumption that I will not "spend considerable time in prison".
     
  6. buster40c

    buster40c Well-Known Member

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    I have seen more than a few reloaders stating that for competition shooting their reloads performed with more accuracy than factory loads. Which is why they use their own reloads instead of factory loads. But I have never heard a reloader say their reloads were for, or would cause, more body damage than a factory load. Accuracy in point blank range doesn't require bullet accuracy. If a reload had mercury or something added into the bullet then that would be a different story. I do not reload so maybe I am all wrong about this.
    The thing to realize is that juries for gun shooting trials are probably not chosen for their understanding of guns in any way. This is why a prosecuting attorney will slip in the killer bullet, or the loaded chamber with full magazine, or the no external safety, or trigger tuning. This is where having an attorney well knowledgeable in gun facts and law is more likely your key to freedom. For this reason I have an attorney that is qualified in gun knowledge and law.
    It's funny how people buy insurance for every possible loss but when it comes to spending under $150 a year for legal defense concerning guns they think it is unwarranted. If they really believed this then why do they have a gun in the first place? Chances are if a person gets indicted it would probably cost a minimum of 25 grand for legal counsel. I will spend the $150 a year. I make one phone call and my legal defense is immediately put in motion.
     
  7. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Lifetime Supporter

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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  8. berettabone

    berettabone In the army now..

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    I never use reloads period.............not mine, definitely not someone else's. Don't trust em.....................................have never had one issue with factory ammo in 40+ yrs. of shooting. I'll stick to what works for now.............
     
  9. VThillman

    VThillman Active Member

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    Buster, that $150 is a retainer, right? Doesn't seem like it could begin to cover the lawyer's expenses in an effective defense.
     
  10. buster40c

    buster40c Well-Known Member

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    VT that is definitely not a retainer. I pay nothing for legal counsel and representation from the moment I call them due to any problem involving my use of a gun. I will have to pay court costs. I can also add onto my membership a cost for covering providing expert for defense. I had checked into other legal offers and I didn't like what little they actually provided me at even a higher cost.
    The way this is offered is by large number of members paying into a fund which pays for the representation. The legal firm I am with is now in most states. You can imagine the money they take in as a whole.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  11. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    Thank You, Thank You, Thank You Very Much SHOOTER13. :D


    Massad Ayoob :p Can you see why I didn't try to spell it oldschoolfool?


    I still can't pronounce it but the experts name that did the interview on the radio I spoke of is Massad Ayoob. :eek:
    I know he is published, don't know why I couldn't find him!


    Reloads are no good? Had a guy tell me that onetime, but he didn't how to reload so he was correct.

    Factory loads: Primers so high they locked the revolver, case too long so the action couldn't fully go into battery, massive overload, squib load, side of case crushed from improper bullet seating................ just to name a few. All name brand ammo BTW.

    It's one lucky duck that has never had one issue with factory ammo in 40+ years.

    :machinegun: < MY handloads: Kind of a moot point. I carry factory loads, inspect every one closely and hope I never need to shoot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  12. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    I've only briefly looked into one place that offers this kind of protection.
    Looked like if the police charged me they would drop me. You have motivated me to search further.
    An innocent man could be charged so I kinda gave up on the idea at the time.
     
  13. berettabone

    berettabone In the army now..

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    For legal purposes, I have been told by several instructors that your better off carrying ammo with the word/words defensive, for defense, critical defense, self defense or any thing like these examples on the box. If you have legal representation in a court room, it's important for your mouthpiece to be able to show a jury that you weren't carrying black talons, or bullets that claim to have a buzz saw action, or any of the new fangled ammo their coming out with these days. The person in question was carrying ammo for the explicit purpose of self defense only, no special powerful personal loads, or any other kind of round that would make a jury think you were anything other than a nice guy. Hogwash???????? Maybe....................................................................but I like the idea, and anything is a help. I have nothing against anyone who reloads, and I know it saves denaro, but I choose not to use it. Rifles are a bit different story for me. I guess I am one of the lucky one's..........no negligent discharges, and no ammo issues(knock on wood). I must be doing something right, cause I started shooting at age 8 in the basement with my father who was a gunsmith, and been shooting off and on for 52 yrs.
     
  14. Win94ae

    Win94ae New Member

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    GunDigest.com: Handloads: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry

    By: Corrina Peterson | July 9, 2012
    As an expert witness in shooting cases over the past few decades, Massad Ayoob has drawn a few conclusions about what works and what doesn’t. In this excerpt from his recent book, Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob, he explains why he avoids the use of handloads for defensive purposes.

    '...You’d think the court would take the reloader’s records into account and allow testing based on that. It doesn’t happen. No one has yet been able to offer a case where the Court took the reloader’s data or word for what was in the load. It’s seen as self-serving “evidence” that can’t be independently verified. Sort of like a rape suspect saying, “I couldn’t have done it, because it says right here in my own diary that I was somewhere else that day.”


    After seeing these things in court, I learned to avoid the use of handloads for defensive purposes.'
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  15. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    You are certainly correct about what your ammo is called. Black Talons could sound BAD to some uninformed jurors.
    Also, we need to think of the advertising aspect. This ammo is for home defense, or this stuff crushes and rips though........... well, you know.

    Also, what does your gun look like? No skull and crossbones grips on my gun.
    I heard a guy say his house gun is a L/A .45 Long Colt rifle because it doesn't look mean and nasty.
    I'm not going that far but it is something to think about.
     
  16. Win94ae

    Win94ae New Member

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    No, you never want to "kill" him/her; you only want to "stop the threat" they pose. If he/she happened to die in the process, that would be unfortunate for them.
     
  17. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    I agree!!!
     
  18. buster40c

    buster40c Well-Known Member

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    Magum check out Texas Law Shield. I believe they now also go by US Law Shield since they are in so many states now. The only thing they will not provide me legal counsel for is a civil suit but only if am found guilty in the main case. If found innocent then they still represent me in a civil case.
     
  19. oldschoolfool

    oldschoolfool In the army now..

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    what you have is most likely an insurance product, similar to the USCCA product (found here-https://www.usconcealedcarry.com) which pools "subscription" money into an insurance policy to provide benefits to it's contributors based upon the amount they contribute. There are many products like it, and some are great and some are nothing more than a referral service - ask the company for referrals and compare their features and any restrictions to the services provided. I'm a member of one, and I also have a private law firm on retainer(not just for this eventuality, but also for my business).

    And VT, my arguments have worked just fine in court, as argued by good defense counsel and as attested to by well respected expert witnesses and advisors -which is where my practices and arguments have come from. When in doubt, hire or ask an expert or two.... ;)
     
  20. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    Thanks buster, I'll look into Texas Law Shield.
    Come to think of it, I've head adds for them on the radio. :tiphat: