Outstretched or bent arm

Discussion in 'Ruger Center Fire Pistols' started by Tommycourt, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    In shooting there are various ways of holding your revolver or semi auto pistol. Personally I use the bent arm position with my elbows bent downwards and maybe at a 45 degree angle (I am guessing). My sons in LE state that they use the bent arm in training. Hickok 45 uses the out stretch style. Which one do you use and why?

    Tommy
     
  2. VThillman

    VThillman Active Member

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    Tommy, If you are using both hands on the gun, the only way to have both arms straight is with a 'pure' isosceles stance. That stance pretty much demands the you 'lean in' a little, if only to make sure you ain't leaning back. Anyway, that's the stance I use freestanding, both arms straight. I use it because it doesn't allow sloppiness - you are either there or you ain't - and it's easy to tell when you ain't.
     

  3. phideaux

    phideaux Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I use both,

    But, only bent arm, isosceles, when shooting , 44 mag, 461 mag, 50 mag, and 45-70,

    That's where the bent elbows act as shock asorbers, with slight forward lean .:cool:
    Here I am with a .50 magnum ..

    [​IMG]


    Jim
     
  4. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    Jim,

    I used a modified weaver with bent arms. My right foot is back just a few inches from my left. The reason for not using isosceles is if someone should come up from behind, it's easier to push you off balance than from the Weaver. Granted, I am not using a full or heavily modified Weaver, however it is NOT isosceles. It's not as hard as it may sound. Possibly try it with your big bore pistols and see how it works for you.

    Tommy
     
  5. Oldhand

    Oldhand AKA Rawhidekid! Lifetime Supporter

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    I have found that with semi auto, the straight arm push with right, pull with left, locks you and the weapon. Less jams and better accuracy. Bent arms on large caliber revolvers for shock absorption.:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  6. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    Rawhide,

    You are correct. Your accuracy can be affected and that's one reason I am at the range every week practicing. I can shoot using both stances however I am leaning towards the slight Weaver stance. One reason is my step son, who is head of the SWAT team states that with an outstretched arm, you are giving the BG a slight advantage when entering a room or dark hallway. With the Weaver stance, he might be less apt to hit your arm downwards thus hitting the arm or wrist causing you to drop your weapon. They have been teaching this method for the last 2 years although it has never been tested in a real scenario.It also helps in stabilizing when you are walking or standing should someone come from behind. Hope I never have to use it, however being able to shoot both ways might give you an advantage as the BG has the advantage at first because you don't know what his intentions are. Food for thought.

    Tommy
     
  7. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    When shooting right handed, my right arm is nearly straight , left bent.
    My stance is all different than what most use. My left foot is forward as if to be ready to take a step.
    I'm sure this comes from studying Karate most of my life. Although nowadays my body no longer tolerates the workout, old habits die hard.
    This stance feels more stable (and natural) to me over the Weaver even though I practice using both.
     
  8. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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    I use a form of Weaver with strong arm straight and support arm pulling back to "lock" my arm back into my shoulder. I tend to stand at more of an angle to the target with left foot farther forward, and really leaning into the stance. Definitely not how a pro would teach it, I think...:rolleyes:
     
  9. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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    Lately I've been trying a close-quarters stance, with left arm held chest high, across my chest, elbow pointed outward in defensive posture. The gun hand draws and presents the gun next to the hip, tilted outward slightly. Supposedly this aids in retention if the BG gets close enough to make a play for my gun. It takes tons of practice to hit anything more than 7 feet away though.
     
  10. Oldhand

    Oldhand AKA Rawhidekid! Lifetime Supporter

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    One of the things I liked about IDPA was you shot in so many different positions. Standing, concealed, moving and backing up firing from the waist. :Cooltu:
     
  11. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    I've been shooting pistols for more than a half century; and I'm happy to say that during this time I've been able to keep up with all the changes the sport has gone through. When I started, one-handed revolver shooting was the only way to go; and it ruled at numerous police postal events I attended. Gradually semi-autos began to come along; and, it was during the early '70's that I first became aware of the Fairbairn/Weaver two-handed pistol hold.

    Since the mid '70's I've kept up with the several variations of pistol gripping techniques that have become popularized; (some of them only fleetingly so) and have now gone through the: Fairbairn/Weaver, Modified Weaver, Isosceles, Chapman, Reverse Chapman, Fist-Fire, 1/8th and 1/4, 'Homie' methods of gripping a pistol.

    Now that I'm in my early 70's I'm pleased to be able to say that I'm still shooting a pistol as well as I used to when I was in my 30's! I like to think that the evolution of my own pistol shooting technique has been as enlightened as it has been progressive. (I really get, 'a kick' out of being able to still draw a crowd of onlookers - many of them other instructors - while I'm actually firing on the line.)

    Importantly, I should add that in order to be able to maintain this level of skill I've had to adjust to the subtle physical changes that my aging body has forced upon me. I do NOT handle a pistol today with the same arm strength and acute vision that I did, 'back in the day', say, 25 or 30 years ago. In the early years I was able to force my body to adopt to whatever, 'pistol shooting technique du jour' was popular at the time; but, today, I have to pay attention to, and put more effort into cooperating with my body rather than trying to tell it what to do.

    I tend to shoot pistols fast; and I tend to shoot them well; but, at the same time, I'm a very different sort of pistolero than I used to be; and, if I were to put some of these changes into words, I'd say that I'm much more reflective, now, and I have a much more pronounced tendency to, 'listen to my body', today, than I used to. I don't have the arm strength or, perhaps the eyesight, of a shooter like Hickok45; consequently I don't handle a pistol like he does, either.

    No matter what style or technique a pistol shooter uses one constant remains true throughout the process: Great pistol shooting begins with the proper grip. If the grip is right; and the pistol is under your firm control, then, the proper trigger stroke will follow. The steps are (1) a firm readily controllable grip, (2) the correct sight picture for the pistol you are using; (I don't use adjustable sights on any combat pistol.) and (3) the proper - NOT, 'disarticulated' but, 'directed' trigger stroke - Which can be a press or a tap when you're firing quickly. (The term, 'a surprise break' is far more applicable to shooting a rifle than it is to using a pistol.)

    In my latter years the most cooperative and useful pistol grasping technique I've learned to use is (Ready?) the Reverse Chapman Method. None of the other gripping styles work as well for me when it comes to putting every shot, 'in there'. The Reverse Chapman grip/stance is, in large part, the same as D.R. Middlebrooks' Fist-Fire technique; and it requires the elbow of the gun (strong) hand to be slightly bent.

    You need to bend this elbow in order to: (1) line up the pistol under your (correct) dominant eye, and (2) press the trigger NOT straight back, but straight back AND downward at the same time. (Otherwise a right-handed pistol shooter is going to start, 'kissing' his target at 7 to 9 o'clock.) In order to press the trigger properly every single time, your strong arm elbow becomes the mental reference point that you need to use. (I almost said, 'anchor point'; but I don't want to imply that either elbow should be locked because, actually, they shouldn't. It's the wrists that should be locked.)

    Foot position is part of every proper stance; but, in my experience, not critically so. Generally, my gun-hand side has the foot trailing; but not always. Personally, as I've aged I've gotten farther and farther away from both the Weaver (it's variations), and the isosceles stances - NONE of which I've found to be as fast or accurate as using a Reverse Chapman arm position in combination with an 1/8, 'Homie' grip. (The Brian Enos Pistol Forum has published several threads on the, 'Homie' grip; and you can study it more over there.)

    You've mentioned a, '45 degree angle'; so, perhaps, I should mention that this steep an angle isn't necessary. You don't need to use any more bend in your gun-hand elbow than is necessary to maintain tension in your LOWER forearm tendons instead of your upper forearm tendons. (Which would, automatically, signal me that I was holding the pistol incorrectly.*)

    The above, pretty much, tells you how I hold a pistol as well as, 'Why'. Good luck to your sons. American law enforcement seems to be getting harder and harder to do everyday.


    * NOTE: This sort of personal perception requires a subtle change in, 'How' you use your body; and you're going to have to be really, 'tuned into yourself' before you'll be able to pick up on this sort of (actually mild) arm tension, and begin to use it to your own best advantage!
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
  12. SavageGuy

    SavageGuy Active Member

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    I use the same form, right arm straight, left arm bent with my left foot forward and my right foot back. Works well when dealing with recoil.
     
  13. LCP65

    LCP65 New Member

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    Not being that familiar with the Weaver, Chapman, and Isosceles stances I found this website with a good explanation and photos. I do find that I do some of these without knowing what they are called. I plan to read it again and practice the various stances. This is a very good thread.
     
  14. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    Here! May I suggest that you read and listen carefully to everything D.R. Middlebrooks has been good enough to offer his fellow pistoleros. ;)

    The Evolution Of (American) Combat Pistol Shooting
     
  15. LCP65

    LCP65 New Member

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    Looks like a very interesting website. Thanks a lot for the link.
     
  16. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    RavenU

    Thank you soooooooo much for putting this video on the thread. I was tremendously impressed with the shooting w/o sights on the pistol. I have a hard enough time hitting the target with sights although I only use the front sight. He offers some very valuable information and techniques. I think that this is where my sons are getting the "bent arm" training in LE. As he stated, most gun fights are done @21 feet or less. This man gives you some very insightful information on self protection and postioning yourself when confronted. I am going to talk to my sons and ask them if this is similar to the program they are training with. Again, thank you so much for making this available!!! At my age, I will take all the help and assistance that I can get.

    Tommy
     
  17. LCP65

    LCP65 New Member

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    RavenU, some very good information in that link you provided. Next time I get to the range I'll be practicing some of these stances. In the past I've always maintained fully extended arms but I believe some bend in the elbows is a better technique. I've tried this while dry firing and the sight picture is better with the gun a little closer.

    I found that the two handed grip where he wraps his support hand around the gun first very interesting. Since I've always put my support hand over my strong hand this seems a bit awkward but I plan to practice it. Do you are anyone else here do that?

    This is really a good thread. :spot:

    Ken
     
  18. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    Ken, it's not just that, 'the sights are closer to you'; it's that the slightly bent gun-side elbow serves as a sort of, 'anchor' for your trigger finger. By slightly bending your gun-hand elbow you will, ever so gently, flex the lower tendons in your forearm rather than creating, more or less, useless additional tension along the top of your forearm. (Which won't do anything that's really useful to help you hit the target!)

    'Trigger finger disarticulation' is an interesting INTELLECTUAL concept; but, at the same time, it's also a complete physical impossibility! With an increased awareness of the tendons in your lower forearm you will be able to, 'anchor' or direct the rearward movement of your trigger finger BOTH backward, and downward at the same time; and, THUS, avoid throwing your pistol shots into the much dreaded 6 to 9 o'clock lower quadrant of the target. (3 to 6 o'clock for left-handed pistol shooters)

    You will enjoy increased control over BOTH the pistol, itself, as well as the manner in which you stroke the trigger. Your support-arm should be straight; and your gun-arm should have a slightly bent elbow. The usual rules then apply. You pull backwards with your support-hand at about 60% strength; and you push forwards with you gun-hand at about 40% strength.

    The pistol has added security in your hands because you also splay the one hand outward from the other at the bottom of your grip. (This will cause the pistol to be canted in what is called an, '1/8th Homie Grip'.) I'm an older pistol shooter; but you'd never know it by the way I shoot! This, 'Reverse ChapmanStance and Eighth Homie Grip' has worked out very very well for me; and my older body doesn't have to struggle through any sort of unnatural contrived technique in order for me to continue to shoot well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  19. LCP65

    LCP65 New Member

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    OK RavenU, a question. First of all, I am a right handed and an older shooter. By '1/8th Homie Grip' do you mean that the pistol would be rolled 1/8 to the right from vertical? From what I can tell that is the natural direction for me with my left arm straight and my right elbow slightly bent.

    Did you answer this question or did I miss your answer?
    I found that the two handed grip where he wraps his support hand around the gun first very interesting. Since I've always put my support hand over my strong hand this seems a bit awkward but I plan to practice it. Do you or anyone else here do that?
     
  20. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    1. No! Your hands and the gun should lock together in the rough shape of a pyramid with your two grasping hands splayed apart and away from each other - Especially at the bottom of the pistol's grip. The, 'lock' occurs up by your thumbs, middle, and index fingers with the pistol's sights forming the apex of the triangle.

    YOU, 'ROLL' THE PISTOL INTO AN, '1/8TH HOMIE GRIP' BY ROTATING THE MUZZLE AND FRONT SIGHT TOWARDS YOUR VERTICAL BODY CENTERLINE. (JUST LIKE YOU WOULD IF YOU WERE USING AN AUTHENTIC, 'HOMIE GRIP'.)

    The direction of rotation, then, is inward, or towards the left, for a right-handed shooter rather than outward, and towards the right, as you have indicated.

    2. I believe that, perhaps, you missed my original answer. I wrote:

    'You will enjoy increased control over BOTH the pistol, itself, as well as the manner in which you stroke the trigger. Your support-arm should be straight; and your gun-arm should have a slightly bent elbow. The usual rules then apply. You pull backwards with your support-hand at about 60% strength; and you push forwards with you gun-hand at about 40% strength.'

    The Fist-Fire grip (which, for my own use) I have further modified into what I call a, 'pyramidal grip' by employing a further 1/8th ('Homie') rotation to both my own gun-hand as well as the pistol itself,

    DOES WRAP THE SUPPORT HAND OVER THE GUN-HAND.

    Remember, I accomplish this by slightly splaying the heels of both my hands outward and away from each other while I aim the pistol. Anything new seems strange at first; but I think that after working with this technique for a short while you see that your body is doing things much more naturally. This is, by the way, the manner in which I usually practice while dry-firing a pistol. It helps me to get used to and remember to aim off the top right corner of the front sight while shooting with my right hand.

    I'm ambidextrous; and, so far, this method of aim has worked well for me all the way out to 20 + yards. (I only rarely fire a combat pistol at any distance greater than 22-23 yards.) Here's a typical 23 yard rapid-fire (RH) pistol target I brought home from the range, about 2 weeks ago I fired it very quickly while using my G-19(RTF2) and the technique we've been discussing:

    REVERSE CHAPMAN!
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016