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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Long post, sorry.

On another forum, talking about finding some light loads for the 44 Magnum I bought, I made the comment that I was not going to shoot 44 Specials out of it due to the fact I thought it was bad for the gun.my contention is, shoot enough 44 Specials out of a 44 magnum cylinder and you will eventually score the chambers regardless of how well you clean it. You can not clean erosion caused by flame cutting. You can prevent pitting from happening by cleaning, but these are two different animals.

I know that my view is contraversal but I believe it is valid. I also know that you can shoot 44 special out of a 44 magnum with out fear of harm to the shooter. (The same is true of 38 Specials in 357 Magnum, 32 Longs out of 327 Magnums, 22 shorts out of 22 long rifle, hell, even 45/70 out of a 45/120). I just truly it's detremental to the gun.

I do not think that there is any debate that top strap cutting, throat erosion, forcing cone, and the like occur. What is magical about that 16th of an inch of chamber between the mouth of the special case to the mouth of the Magnum case that protects it from the forces that the top strap, forcing cone, and throat are subject to.

Show me proof that i am wrong and I will change my thinking. I spoke with a gunsmith friend. He told me that I would never shoot enough standard pressure 38 Specials through a magnum to cause any damage. Light 110 grain bullets could cause a difference and +P or +P+ generate enough pressure to cause it. He went on to mention that he had replaced the cylinders on several Model 19's that had eroded chambers. When I asked if people really shot that many +P rounds hs answer was "obviously so".

Another issue with the shorter cartridge, although not related to the discussion at hand but still with mentioning. The shorter cartridge generally will not be as accurate as the longer due to bullet jump.

My first centerfire pistol was a Colt New Police chambered for the .32 Colt New Police. ( Sort of obvious isn't it?) I was told that it was ok to shoot 32 S&W long as the two cartridges were identical, but don't shoot 32 Long Colt, and don't shoot 32 S&W as they would damage the gun. The cylinder, BTW, had just been replaced due to damage by firing the wrong round. I also understand that steel produced at the turn of the last century was probably not as strong as steel produced today, plus it probably was not heat treated. And yes, I know that the 32 Colt case is smaller in diameter than the S&W and Colt New Police offerings.

Below is a excerpt from the blog of a firearms defense trainer. He shares my views.p


From John Farnam: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/15May06.html


"15May06
On 357Mg revolvers, from a student:

"John; I have been shooting a Colt Python 357Mg revolver I recently picked up, used, but in nice condition. Unfortunately, the extractor rod cannot push spent casings out without a good deal of pounding. Casings (Winchester white-box 357Mg) keep sticking in chambers. I love the pistol, but lack the confidence that I will be able to fire more than six rounds!
Do you know what is causing this dilemma?"

My Reply:

The problem with your Python is probably the same one endemic to all 357Mg revolvers which have had a lot of 38Spl rounds fired through them.

A revolver chambered for the 357 Magnum cartridge will also chamber and fire the shorter 38 Special cartridge. The same is true for 44 Magnum and 44 Special cartridges. This is claimed by many to be a great advantage of the 357 Magnum revolver since 38 Special ammunition is less expensive than 357 Magnum ammunition. However, there are some problems with this practice. Hot gases associated with bullet launch eventually cause spalling on the walls of the chamber. The chamber will gradually be ringed with tiny spall marks where the bullet comes off the 38 Special case. When the longer 357 Magnums are then fired in the same chambers, the brass will expand into the spall ring, making rapid case extraction difficult and eventually impossible, as you noted. What all this means is that shooting a lot of 38 Specials in a 357 Magnum revolver will eventually ruin the weapon for 357 Magnum rounds. As a solution to the problem you can do one of two things:

(1) Simply dedicate the weapon to 38 Special and do not bother with 357 Magnum rounds at all. (2) Shoot only 357 Magnum rounds in it, both for practice and for duty, forsaking 38Spl ammunition altogether. This solution only applies, of course, to new guns

With your revolver as it is, solution (1) will make the most sense.
/John "
 

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Greg, my opinion is what is considered "alot" of ammo? A hundred rounds, a thousand, one hundred thousand? Don't you feel a good gun cleaning is far more important than varied ammo?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Greg, my opinion is what is considered "alot" of ammo? A hundred rounds, a thousand, one hundred thousand? Don't you feel a good gun cleaning is far more important than varied ammo?
Yes, I feel a good cleaning will ward off lots of problems. Crud will build up at the chamber where the mouth of the case is. Don't clean this up, and the chamber will pit underneath this crud. What I am talking about though is cutting from the heat of firing the cartridge. It happens at firing and no amount of cleaning will put back natal that is lost in this manner.

How many rounds will it take? A lot! More than most people will ever shoot. A prime example is the 243 Winchester. It is a known barrel burner. Accuracy falling off in as little as 1500 rounds. Most people will not ever burn out a 243 barrel.

Me? I go to the range every Saturday morning. It is not uncommon for me to shoot 200 to 300 rounds each Saturday. At least once a month I go to the farm. It's not uncommon for me to shoot 100 to 200 rifle rounds. More if I take my 5.56 or 9mm. Not long ago I took my Hi Point carbine and 1000 rounds of 9mm. At the end of the day I counted my remaining rounds. My brother, nephew, and myself went through 937 rounds!:eek: I have personally shot out several rifle barrels. No pistol barrels yet.
 

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Just crunching numbers, if you shot 300 rounds a week, every week, in a year you will have shot 15,600 rounds. Maybe in 10 years of doing this, you will have shot 156,000 rounds. I would expect to see major barrel issues after 150k - 200k rounds.

I'm only conversing with you on these numbers because I too have been doing alot of shooting lately. This exact conversation came up with our friend and a co-instructor for many elite special forces. He showed his steel target challenge competition Beretta, that had 400k rounds through it. Honestly, the gun shot fine, and there was less concern about the barrel than the mechanics of the gun. It rattled alot, and was really beat up from alot of wear and tear, but was still his everyday shooter. Not for strict competitions, but for fun shooting.

Bottom like with only my opinion is just shoot it and if the big guy upstairs blesses us with enough time on earth, then feel fortunate and go get yourself a new gun when you want to shoot a new gun, and not when you wear out the barrel.
 

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Greg, if the long term result of the subject activity is actual spalling of the chamber, there is no useful counter argument. Reloaders do have a 'fix' of course; they can make light loads using the magnum cases.

Shooters with modern 45 Colt wheelguns don't need to be reloaders; they can choose between CA cartridges and 'Ruger/TC' loads that are magnum strength.
 

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I don't disagree with you, Greg. But, I'll still shoot .38's outta my .357's. I honestly don't think that I'll shoot enough .38's to cause damage. If I do, I suppose I'll buy another cylinder. Something I noticed when I first bought my Blackhawk: in the chambers of the cylinder, right where the end of a .38 spl case ends, there is a bright shiny perfect strip of metal around the chambers. It looks like it is reinforced or is made from a different metal. This is how it came from the factory, and is still there. I wonder if this is Rugers attempt to fix the problem?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You know, I really like this forum. First because I have always been a Ruger fan, just never owned but one. I have started to remedy that in the past couple of years and need to be on a Ruger forum. I can't remember who invited me, I think it was Pancho. Amy glad I was invited.

Second is what you see in this thread. I have an admittedly controversial view on a matter and can voice my views and give reasons for it and not get flamed. I'm sure I would get set straight if I were wrong, along with proof of why I were wrong!

This started on the other forum when I was looking for cat sneeze loads for the 44 magnum, using magnum brass. Neither of my current manuals list light loads. My older Speer manual does list them, but the loads are between 3.5 grains and 4.2 grains below starting loads in my new manuals! I have decided to just load the 44 Magnum to near max and enjoy it for what it is. I still have my 45 Colt to shoot the cat sneeze loads in. By the way, dosent Trail Boss stink?!
 

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It sure is dirty, I try to always shoot light loads in 357 Mag cases. Shooting 38 Special in a 357 Mag probably wouldn't cause a problem if cleaned after every shooting. The problem comes from not cleaning the chamber after shooting the shorter cases. It is the build up that causes the problem. When I do plan on shooting both, I shoot the mags first and end with the Specials.;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just crunching numbers, if you shot 300 rounds a week, every week, in a year you will have shot 15,600 rounds. Maybe in 10 years of doing this, you will have shot 156,000 rounds. I would expect to see major barrel issues after 150k - 200k rounds.

I'm only conversing with you on these numbers because I too have been doing alot of shooting lately. This exact conversation came up with our friend and a co-instructor for many elite special forces. He showed his steel target challenge competition Beretta, that had 400k rounds through it. Honestly, the gun shot fine, and there was less concern about the barrel than the mechanics of the gun. It rattled alot, and was really beat up from alot of wear and tear, but was still his everyday shooter. Not for strict competitions, but for fun shooting.

Bottom like with only my opinion is just shoot it and if the big guy upstairs blesses us with enough time on earth, then feel fortunate and go get yourself a new gun when you want to shoot a new gun, and not when you wear out the barrel.
I do not mean to imply I shoot the same gun every week. My most shot of what i own probably gets 6000 to 8000 rounds per year. The ones i have wore out are high intensity rifles like the 243 and 22-250AI. The only handguns I have wore out were 45's, a Taurus Millenium and a couple of 1911's. Like your friends Beretta, the 45's still had good barrels, just needed a few parts replaced. The rifles were fixed by cutting a few threads off the breech end of the barrel, running a chamber reamed in them and torquing the barrel back down.
 

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Interesting chat,

Have you ever thought about the bullet jump in a Judge or Governor , 3" 410 ga revolve,r when shooting 45LC?


That's exactly why I don't own one.



Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Interesting chat,

Have you ever thought about the bullet jump in a Judge or Governor , 3" 410 ga revolve,r when shooting 45LC?


That's exactly why I don't own one.



Jim
Yes I have. It's also the reason I don't have one. I do have a H&R Survivor in 45/410. I can hit a 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards with the 45 Colt. Some of that might be due to only having a bead sight, but still!

I do have a 45/410 on my short list though. One of the few non-Rugers I'm wanting. The Bond Arms Snakeslayer IV. I think it will be a hoot. Mostly worthless, but a hoot! :D
 

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I don't like to shoot 38's in my .357's.
It takes tooo much work to get the chambers as clean as I want 'em after shooting 38's.

Also, never seen a 38 shoot as accurately thru a .357 as a .357 load will shoot.
I guess that's due to the bullet bouncing around before it enters the cylinder's throat. :dunno:



:usa:
 

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I don't like to shoot 38's in my .357's.
It takes tooo much work to get the chambers as clean as I want 'em after shooting 38's.

Also, never seen a 38 shoot as accurately thru a .357 as a .357 load will shoot.
I guess that's due to the bullet bouncing around before it enters the cylinder's throat.
:dunno:

:usa:
Hah. I dunno about bounce, but I'm thinking some of them get shaved on one side by the leading edge of the throat. That would not be a good thing for accuracy.
 

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I bought a 357 mag so I could also shoot 38 spl and +P. I seldom ever shoot 357. I still don't have a problem with 357 sticking in the cylinders. I thought about getting a 44 mag so I could shoot 44 special also. After reading so much about the mule kick recoil of the 44 mag I would never shoot the 44 mag either. I don't have any elk or bear worries where I live. So I am sticking with the 44 special Bulldog I just got. I am liking it more all the time and actually way more than 38 or for cripe sakes the 357.
I never thought I would like owning a revolver that the caliber started with a 4, but this one I do enjoy shooting.
 

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I bought a 357 mag so I could also shoot 38 spl and +P. I seldom ever shoot 357. I still don't have a problem with 357 sticking in the cylinders. I thought about getting a 44 mag so I could shoot 44 special also. After reading so much about the mule kick recoil of the 44 mag I would never shoot the 44 mag either. I don't have any elk or bear worries where I live. So I am sticking with the 44 special Bulldog I just got. I am liking it more all the time and actually way more than 38 or for cripe sakes the 357.
I never thought I would like owning a revolver that the caliber started with a 4, but this one I do enjoy shooting.
Quite a while ago there was a post (don't remember the thread) where a guy was not able to chamber .357's in his .357 magnum.
I think the problem was the previous owner shot 38's and rarely (if ever) cleaned the chambers.
After lots of suggestions on ways to clean the chambers he reported no more problems w/.357's.

I'd bet if you give the .357 a quick clean after shooting 38's you'll never 'stick' a .357 case.

BTW, You're now in the prestigious revolver "4" club buster...
 

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I always clean my guns after shooting. Mainly because if something were to happen that put my guns in question as to being involved they wouldn't be able to say this gun has been fired recently.
I run a brush down the cylinders and the barrel then they are swabbed clean. I also shine a flashlight through the barrel and cylinder to check for lead or other problems.

How about that, I have never been in any prestigious club. Do I get a patch to wear? I like the Ruger bird.
 

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On another forum, talking about finding some light loads for the 44 Magnum I bought, I made the comment that I was not going to shoot 44 Specials out of it due to the fact I thought it was bad for the gun.my contention is, shoot enough 44 Specials out of a 44 magnum cylinder and you will eventually score the chambers regardless of how well you clean it. You can not clean erosion caused by flame cutting. You can prevent pitting from happening by cleaning, but these are two different animals.

I know that my view is contraversal but I believe it is valid. I also know that you can shoot 44 special out of a 44 magnum with out fear of harm to the shooter. (The same is true of 38 Specials in 357 Magnum, 32 Longs out of 327 Magnums, 22 shorts out of 22 long rifle, hell, even 45/70 out of a 45/120). I just truly it's detremental to the gun.
I feel sure your view is valid.
Of course there's going to be flame cutting of the chambers in a .44 Mag when firing .44 Spl's.
The way I see it the only question is how many .44 Spl shots would it take to cause any real damage?

I'm sure it could happen.
You should see the cutting on the top strap and edge of the forcing cone of a .357 I've had for ever!
 

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I always clean my guns after shooting. Mainly because if something were to happen that put my guns in question as to being involved they wouldn't be able to say this gun has been fired recently.
I run a brush down the cylinders and the barrel then they are swabbed clean. I also shine a flashlight through the barrel and cylinder to check for lead or other problems.

How about that, I have never been in any prestigious club. Do I get a patch to wear? I like the Ruger bird.
Funny, one of the reasons I don't put off cleaning my gun is the reason you stated above.

And Yes, You do get a patch. The committee is meeting next week to determine the type and size.
(They gave me 90 days to return mine when I sold my .44 Mag)! :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Here is a picture of erosion on the top strap on a revolver I own due to flame cutting. The revolver turns 100 years old this year 1917 - 2017. Who knows how many times it's been shot? My point is that no amount of cleaning would have prevented it, it happened just due to shooting. This revolver is not heat treated, how many were in 1917? I wonder what a revolver built today in 2017, with modern manufacturing procedures, and used as this one was, would look like in 2117?

The revolver is a S&W 2nd model hand ejector. The US Army 1917. It is a low (4 digits) serial number that went to France in 1917. Great-grandfather was allowed to keep it after armistice day. It passed to grandfather who used it when he carried the payroll to the railroad workers. This was in the day before taxes and the workers were paid in cash. He told the story how he was walking down the tracks when a person tried to rob him of the payroll. He took the pistol and shot one rail then the other rail. The bullets were singing off the rail and the last he saw of the robber he was running down the tracks as fast as he could go! The pistol passed to my father, who I don't think ever shot it, put it in a box and stored it in the closet. About 10 years ago it was passed down to me. The oil had solidified, it worked but was gummed up. Thankfully my grandfather, who was a watchmaker and gunsmith by trade had taught me a bit about the workings of guns and I was able to disassemble it, clean it, and put it back together. I still shoot it today, but only with cast handloads at the low end of the reloading range. Don't want to stress the old girl.
 

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