G Man at the range

Discussion in 'Second Amendment and Legal' started by Tommycourt, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    Usually when I get done blasting paper I go outside to the smoking area. A young man, about 40yrs. old sat and we visited for about 30 minutes. He works for a Government agency (showed me his credentials, I was shocked and I can't say it here) and stated his job was to go to law enforcement centers and work with tactics and the violence we see now. He stated that some of our SOG (special ops groups) in Afghanistan were reverting back to M-14's and .45 cal. The M-14 are a "special rifle" and use match grade bullets. He would not elaborate on their functions nor duties. He mentioned that the 9mm wasn't cutting it when it came to closer fire. They are also using a "special"(.45) bullet. He said he had to be vague on some things as they are classified. He is also working with crime cities like Baltimore, Chicago, DC and more cities. His job is to work with LE only and had served 3 times overseas. He stated the troops we sent over to Afghanistan hate Obama because they are in the middle of the chit but they still engage. They are not confined to just organizing but some are in direct conflict. Rules of engagement are a bunch of crap! He also stated that the 21 foot rule is a folly and don't believe in it. You need more than 21 feet. I don't know how much of this is true but he seemed very cordial and sincere. And one more thing, you don't advertise that you are sending another 500 troops over to aid or assist. All you are doing is giving away your plans. If you are going to strike, then strike and keep the enemy guessing. I don't know if I will see him again, but it was very informative on the little information he gave me. I only hope that God protects him.

    Tommy

    The only things that are infinite is space and the stupidity of man. Albert Einstein.
     
  2. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    I've heard the same about the 9mm not doing well in combat with the FMC bullets they have to use.
    With FMC ammo bigger is better! ... Who am I kidding, bigger is better with everything.
     

  3. phideaux

    phideaux Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Tommy,

    I have 2 GOOD friends that are ex-CIA, and yep there are things they cant tell me( for my own good)
    but, along the lines you talked about....
    They tell me the same thing, and they are the reason I carry .45.

    I could tell you things that they have talked about, that NOBODY would believe..

    Cant tell ya who to vote for , but I can tell ya ....

    Don't listen to the slut Miley Cyrus..:gaah:



    Jim
     
  4. VThillman

    VThillman Active Member

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    Magnum, I suspect that 'special' .45 bullet the SOG is using modifies the concept of FMJ.
     
  5. allenr

    allenr Member

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    A friend who I served with in Nam has a son who is a MARSOG officer. He told me that MARSOG uses a .45 that is modified by the Corps' firearms techies. Those guys do things like make sniper rifles. The modification of the 45 is to reduce the recoil by the way the gasses are released upon firing without reducing velocity.

    I read some weeks back that the Corps was now issuing MARSOG a custom factory made 45 that incorporates the modification its gunsmiths made.

    The regular units are switching to 9mm Glocks over the next few years.

    The preference for the M14 by SOGs is not surprising to me. My boot camp rifle was an M1. After that the M14 was my rifle until my second tour in Nam when I was issued an M16.

    My favorite was the M14. It was the equivalent of an M1 when it came to reliability and power but with the added advantage of the flash suppressor and 20 round magazine even though the early magazines did have some problems with the retention tabs getting bent. We fixed that in the field by rapping those tabs against the helmet before inserting it.

    If I were in need of a rifle, I would definitely get an M14.
     
  6. SavageGuy

    SavageGuy Active Member

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    Until the bill comes..........
     
  7. allenr

    allenr Member

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    I agree with the Gman that the 21 foot rule is not a good standard and is totally void in combat when you can have to shoot a pistol at targets 50 or more feet away.

    My opinion about civilian carry is that one engages when the the threat happens no matter the distance if the target is in range.

    I carry a Lc9s. I find it quite accurate out to 50 feet with the ammo I use (Underwood Xtreme Defender). I practice at 25 and 50 feet with the understanding that most confrontations will be within the 25 feet range but some could be beyond that.

    In this age of active shooters in clubs, malls, theaters, etc the need to take a long shot is very increased.
     
  8. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Lifetime Supporter

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    Back in the day when I worked with the DoD Cybercrime Task Force my issued duty gun was the SIG Sauer P226 in 9mm...and the load I carried was one of the best out at that time...Cor Bon's 9mm Luger +P 125grain JHP 1250 fps/434 ft lbs.

    [​IMG]

    The faster a bullet is traveling, the more energy is created. Energy developed at the muzzle must be transferred or "dumped" into the target to be effective. Energy transfer is aided by bullet expansion. The higher the velocity, the more rapidly the expansion, the more effectively the energy is expended into the target. This explosive expansion dumps the available energy quickly, creating tremendous shocking power...

    Independent studies* have shown that the rapid energy transfer from the bullets violent and immediate expansion in ballistic gelatin had given the Cor Bon JHP a one-shot stopping power percentage of over 90%...with penetration varying from 12 to 15 inches

    *Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow.

    { This was before the 1986 FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986...where the FBI would learn of the inadequate "stopping power" of the standard 9mm loads in use...and therefore demanded a load that would penetrate to at least 12.5 to 18 inches. The 10mm round was looked at...adopted...a S&W firearm chosen...then dropped just as quickly. }

    According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary.

    They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm).
     
  9. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    I have a lifelong friend that made a career out if the Air Force.
    His job was setting up strike bases all over the world. He could tell me about catching and launching fighter jets but not where.

    Too bad :(
    When she was a little kid I was hoping she'd grow up to be a decent straight thinking adult.
    Now she's a lost Hollywood elite. A lot, or even most of Hollywood is that way.
    They don't need a truly free country cause they're in bed (slut) with the ruling elite where the law of the land does not apply....
     
  10. greg_r

    greg_r Well-Known Member

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    One thing I have learned since I have started hog hunting many years ago follows along these lines. My first hog rifle was a 44 magnum. It failed miserably. Don't misunderstand, it would kill a hog, but when things go bad and you want the hog DRT, it's not your cartridge. The best hog rifles? I have had the most luck with the 223 and the 25x45 Sharps. You need good bullets, but they put a hog down now. The 300 BLK does OK with the supersonic bullets, and I don't have one but I am wanting to try the .277 Wolverine.

    I agree with Shooter13. Penetration, shot placement and velocity will get the job done.
     
  11. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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    ^^^ I read an article, I believe by Craig Boddington, that basically said the same - use a round with enough penetration, enough velocity, and put it through the engine block. He was trying to say, use an expanding medium heavy (for diameter) bullet, at medium high velocity, if you hit the vitals with that, you get good results. His example was the 180 gr. Softpoint 30/06 bullet being good for all north American big game except big bears, because its fast enough to create shock but heavy enough to penetrate deep.
     
  12. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    That, ‘G Man’ sounds like the real deal! For many years now I’ve been aware that Tueller’s 21 foot rule is, at best, only a recommendation, and shouldn’t be used as any sort of training standard. Personally? I do, at least, half of my practical pistol training at more than 2 1/2 times that distance; and I know from experience that the ability to engage effectively at and beyond 15 to 18 yards is imperative to CQB pistol gunfighting success.

    The sound reasoning behind this gunfighting methodology is simple; but, at the same time, it’s ‘politically incorrect’; and, even when they instinctively know better, pistoleros seem to, too often, fail to realize the simple fact that:

    THE CLOSER THE BAD GUY IS TO YOU THEN THE MORE LIKELY HE IS TO HIT YOU (FIRST).

    This government agent's statement about the personal danger and stupidity of today’s so-called, ‘Rules of Engagement’ style of warfare is integral to my own above comments. I couldn't agree more; and, it never fails to (sadly) amuse me that the American military is one of only a very few military organizations to demand that its soldiers fight in scrupulous accord with personally dangerous, socialistic, and bassackward, ‘Rules of Engagement’. (I blame the invention of the United Nations' so-called, 'peace keeping missions' for this unrealistic combat methodology.)

    I’ve also done a tremendous amount of 9 x 19mm pistol shooting; (10’s of 1,000’s of fired rounds) and, while I CAN make a 9mm pistol, ‘work’ for me, it’s only because I’m so heavily practiced and possessed of the ability to hit where I’m looking.

    (Which is, in fact, good enough reason to disqualify most lesser practiced gunmen from carrying and relying upon the 9 x 19.)

    In spite of all the FBI, ‘9mm love’ that’s going around right now I can tell you from decades of experience using this chambering (It’s NOT a caliber.) that an inherent ability to place your shots well on all different sorts of targets, both stationary and moving, is absolutely critical to being able to survive with a 9 x 19 pistol in your hand(s) — absolutely critical!

    The 9mm bullet in any weight and in any configuration is a KILLER; however, it is not now, and never will be a STOPPER. Politics and personal preference aside, there ain’t nothing — no other ballistic improvement — that’s ever going to change this cold hard fact.

    (Let's remember, too, that we're talking about pistols, and not rifles, and not even carbines - OK!)

    So that everybody understands: I DO often carry a 9 x 19mm pistol as a primary. I, also, carry a 9 x 17mm pistol as a secondary, as well; but, on my more gruesome days, I don’t fool around; and I strongly prefer to use one of my 45 ACP semi-autos. THIS after more than 4 decades of shooting one pistol or another on an average of 3 or 4 times each month.

    (Often more frequently than that, too, and for as many as 500 fired rounds at a time. What is more, …… I’ve got the tendonitis in my lower arms, the tinnitus in my ears, and the arthritis in my hands to prove it, too.)

    I'm going to add something to this discussion, too: (Ready?) It's literally been years since I've fired only one bullet at a time. Every now and then, and especially when I'm warming up, I'll put out a few single shots; but, more often than not, I fire everything in sets of 2 and 3, or more shots. 9mm bullets are, indeed, KILLERS; but they’re not, and never will be, STOPPERS - NOT for the vast majority of the people who presently carry 9mm handguns.

    As for that, ‘special’ 45 ACP bullet? I’ll bet it’s an FMJ round with an enlarged meplat on its nose. Something I’ve used in my own 45 ACP pistols for many years, now, with good success. (Might be a little bit heavier of a bullet, as well.)

    Here's my own 9 x 19mm G-19(RTF2) ~

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  13. allenr

    allenr Member

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    I think ravenU wrote a really good post. His point was well made.

    Over three tours in Nam I learned one thing for sure. The only sure way to stop an attacker is to kill him. I have seen NVA take several .45 rounds and keep charging until you got a couple center mass hits. In that case the person stopped because he was dying or dead.

    There just is no substitute for a well placed lethal shot. None!
     
  14. SavageGuy

    SavageGuy Active Member

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    As a hunter, Ill add this. Shot placement is everything. If you can hit a deer just behind the shoulder with a .223, but not a .308, you better be hunting with a .223! I once shot a deer at 190 yards with my .30/06 using 180 gr federal powershock. This particular load was moving at 2700 fps. This is a load I would be comfortable using for any game in the US. I shot this deer from a kneeling position at 190 yards. I hit behind the lungs. The deer took off for about 30 before dropping. As I approached, he stood. I shot him again. He ran and dropped. As I approached, same thing happened again, he stood, and I shot. I ended up shooting the buck 4 times with my .30/06 before he finally died. Just because I never hit in a vital place. When I gutted the deer, his insides were turned to liquid. I didn't have to pull anything out, I simply drained him out. So, I think we can all agree that a .30/06 is more powerful than any handgun. (And yes, I know this example was with a deer vs a person). And to put this into perspective: a few days ago, I shot deer. This time, right above the heart. The heart was intact, but the lungs were destroyed. Deer dropped a mere 50 feet away.

    Shot placement is everything!
    So, if you can't hit with the almighty .45, don't carry a .45! if you can hit with a 9mm, carry a 9mm. You also gain extra capacity.

    Also, I have shot deer and seen deer drop instantly, on the spot. All were shot in the neck. I assure you, if you shoot someone in the neck, with even a .380, they will stop. And they will stop faster than if you shot them in the chest with a .45


    "I'd rather be shot in the foot with a .50 bmg than with a .22 short in the neck"
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  15. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    So I guess the takeaway is .... Use your sidearm to fight your way to your long gun.
    (And have plenty of ammo for both).






    :GadsdenFlag:
     
  16. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    Not exactly. The gist of it is to do the best that you can with whatever tool is convenient, at hand, and available for use. It's been my experience that no one is ever able to use a tool well until after he understands BOTH it's strengths and weaknesses; and, even then, how well (or not) a tool is used can still make a vital difference.