[Tommycourt]

I have been wanting to try this for quite a while so today was the day. I started out first by just pointing my SR1911 at the target @20 feet. I did not aim but tried to fire by pointing and then follow up with another round. Needless to say, it was ugly. Sgt York would turn over in his grave. At first I was just using my dominant hand. Then I tried aiming the first round and then follow up with my 2nd round as fast as I could. Then I switched to using both hands. I had one of the range officers time me and the BEST time I got was a hair under 2 seconds-bullet spread was about 4". It is something that has to be practiced quite a bit. I watched some vids and those guys put out 8 rounds under 3 seconds. Not all of my rounds were under the 4" mark though and I did have some fliers. The fliers were plumb ugly!!! I did 25 rounds with my dominant hand and 25 with both hands. I will admit, it is fun although you really need a timer that the pros use. They say that most gun fights will be @20 feet or less. If the BG gives me time, I can get him with the first round maybe but he doesn't have to worry about my second round. Humility is a wonderful thing----I think!!

Tommy

 

[DoubleR]

Sounds like a few more practice sessions and it will be old hat for ya!
We have an app on our phones and we shot time each other. It's not the best but it's enough to get by. I plan on getting a real shot timer this month to add to hubby's anniversary presents

 

[RavenU]

Here's one of my targets:

I fired this target in front of 3 or 4 other pistol instructors. This particular target was run out to 22 yards - Which is the maximum distance I'm comfortable practicing rapid fire at WITH A PISTOL. Unless you're caught in a CQB pistol ambush - An ambush - you should NOT be pistol gunfighting at or inside 20 feet. (Only AN IDIOT would voluntarily do something as stupid as that!)

Personally I strongly prefer to work with a pistol at distances - not equal to, but - greater than 7 1/2 yards. To hell with being politically correct. No citizen/civilian who owns a gun in today's America is ever going to be politically correct, again - Nobody! Those days are, now, gone forever. With this understood, I've been doing these things for a long long time; and, as far as I'm concerned: Any engagement distance that is equal to or less than 7 1/2 yards is, 'MUTUAL SUICIDE DISTANCE' - Mutual suicide distance! (Got it?)

I CAN shoot like this with a 357 Magnum revolver, too; but the two centerfire pistols I prefer to use are either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP. I used my G-19 to shoot the above target; and I fired just as fast as the pistol would go, 'Bang!' Was it difficult to do? No, in fact one of the instructors who was watching me started shaking his head before remarking, 'You shoot better when you fire faster than you do on the slow-fire shots.' (He was correct; but for the purposes of this reply I'm not going to get into, 'Why'.)

Tommy, I'm going to make this explanation as simple as I can for you. (Ready?)

(1) You've got to use your eyes.

(2) You've got to watch THE VERY TOP OF YOUR PISTOL'S FRONT SIGHT.

(3) Don't waste time trying to, 'nest' your front sight after you fire a shot. Learn how to work off the top of your front sight, instead, and don't bother about trying to nest it precisely in place inside the rear sight notch. (That's a bad habit that will cost you, both, time and accuracy!)

(4) You’ve got to learn how to take and use a, ‘LOW HOLD’ on the target’s COM.

(5)It takes a lot of practice (and a lot of ammunition) in order to learn how to do this; but, once you learn, the skill will tend to stay with you. How long did it take me to learn? Well, I fired between 1,000 and 1,500 rounds each month for about 3 1/2 months before I really began to catch on. AFTER you learn how it isn't critical for you to practice all that often.

If you're unable to practice regularly, or if you can't keep up with the ammunition expense (Which can be considerable.) then the worse that will happen is your groups will open up; however, you should still be able to quickly and repeatedly hit COM on a target anytime you want to.

(6) What you're actually teaching yourself how to do is to train your proprioceptive reflexes to move in unison with the recoil of your pistol. Simply stated: There's a, 'bounce' to things; and all you're doing is teaching yourself how to control that bounce. Until after you learn how to really control your bouncing front sight don't just point the pistol.

Work with your eyes until your proprioceptive reflexes have everything, 'down pat'. OK!

 

[Tommycourt]

Raven,
That is certainly much better than I did. This was the first time I tried it and I didn't have much help to get me started. I started out with just shooting 2 shots at a time. Surprisingly the ammo goes fast. What I tried to do was hit the center and then bring the pistol down to the point without "nesting" as you call it or resetting the site to exactly where it was. I guess I was just trying to bring the front sight back down close to the point of origin without actually using the sight as if you were target practicing. I only use the front sight so when I brought the pistol back down after shooting, I used the top of the sight for my second round. Whenever I shoot I only use the front sight. The back sights are blurry and so is my target. I understand what you mean when you say controlling the bounce. That for me was the hard part using my .45. I wanted to see what would happen if a BG came at me and I had to "reflex shoot". In other words, not aim but point the pistol in the direction with some control on where the second shot would hit. Would you please help me on a few shooting tips to help me control the bounce, what method is the best and how to best achieve it. I know I have a lot to learn but it's better to know now than later. My theory is if the BG is within 30 feet I am going to try to get out of the way. The best gun fight for me is the one where I don't have to shoot. MHO is all. Thank you for the info because I know I have a lot to learn and hearing from someone has done this just helps out a lot. I really appreciate your input!!!!

Thanks again so much!

Tommy

 

[RavenU]

You're welcome!

You know, I really had to think twice before I posted this information on a public gun board; but, I consoled myself with the realization that, for anyone who's willing to spend a little time and run an internet search, this information has already been posted by other gunmen and is available! (I just haven't come right out and said it before. Well, maybe, I have; but on no more than one or two other occasions, and on some pretty classy, highly esoteric, gun boards.)

You've asked a few more questions like what learning method is best? Because very few shooters seem to be willing to say, I really don't know, 'How' other pistoleros have done it; but I can tell you how I did it. The biggest revelation for me was that I was working with BOTH the top of the front sight AND the measured muscular reflex of each muzzle bounce. In order to do this successfully the first thing I had to do was to take a proper grip on the pistol, disarticulate my trigger finger as quickly as possible, and then TAKE A LOW HOLD on target COM.

After that it's, pretty much, like simply watching your front sight and allowing the pistol to, 'bounce' back and forth between the point-of-aim, and the top of the muzzle's recoil arc. (Up, down; up, down; up, down over a rigidly fixed distance that's actually determined by your physically acquired proprioceptive reflexes.) It should also be noted that the stronger and more experienced a shooter is then the less, 'bounce' is going to be involved.

HOWEVER excessive, 'bounce' in a shooter's grip is NOT an insurmountable impediment to shooting a pistol repetitively and well - OK! What you're trying to do is to cause the top of the front sight to return to the exact point-of-hold at the bottom of the target's COM oval. Onesie-twosie shots are actually harder to place, accurately, than if you practice by firing shot strings of three or more. I began my own learning process by working in close at distances of no more than five to eight yards. Then, all of a sudden, I had an inspired revelation that,

IF IT WERE EASY FOR ME TO REPEATEDLY HIT THE TARGET AT SUCH EXTREMELY CLOSE RANGE THEN IT WAS ALSO EASIER FOR THE TARGET TO HIT ME, AS WELL! (A HAPLESS REALIZATION THAT WAS NOT CONDUCIVE TO MY OWN FUTURE WELLBEING!)

So, some sort of personal safety modification to my own CQB pistol gunfighting style had to be made! Next, I had one of those rare moments of, 'epiphanic realization'! All of a sudden I realized that every gunman has his own favorite distance at which he prefers to operate - to begin firing.

The, 'trick' then is to begin firing at the target BEFORE the target is quite ready to do exactly the same thing to YOU! 'How' do you successfully do this? First, you watch the hands. (The hand you can't see is the one you have to worry about!) Next, you watch for any visible tension in the target's neck and upper torso. (A slight forward tilt of the head is a sure sign of intended aggression!) Third, you watch the eyes. 'Why?' Because, in keeping with the old French proverb, the eyes really are the, 'mirror of the soul'.

Four important caveats? One, never allow a potential target to get within four or five feet of your body; two, watch out and be ready to react whenever a potential target brings both of his hands close together. (It's one of the oldest tricks in the book; and it still works very well.) Three, always remember that God gave you two hands, AND two feet. Use them all as needed! Four, if - IF - I'm able to, I like to encourage an opponent to turn his body in the direction of his gun side.

(Because a poorly skilled opponent will have a more pronounced tendency to miss his intended target's vertical body centerline! This is the same avoidance technique that you'll learn in a good martial arts class; and it's, also, the same trick that Miyamoto Musashi used against Sasaki Kojirō during their famous duel at Ganryū Island - The move that caused Kojirō's initial sword-stroke to be slightly off and miss its intended mark.)

Years ago I was pumping gas at an isolated pump when, all of a sudden, something didn't, 'feel' right. When I glanced to the side I saw an obvious street vagrant coming straight at me from about fifteen or twenty feet away. I turned the pump nozzle off, stepped away from the pump, and dropped my hand to my side. I never had to say a word! The fellow stopped dead in his tracks, immediately turned around, and walked away.