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Tommycourt
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2,139 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Today I was depriming my .45 expended casings and ran across a Federal round that has an undersized primer pocket. All of my depriming/priming is done by hand so it was easy to recognize it. The head of the casing is NOT marked like the NT rounds were. You just have to look for it. If you are running a progressive loader, you might not spot it when it comes to depriming and resizing your shells. I used my micrometer to try to gauge the size of the primer well and the Federal round measured @.204. I also gauged some of the other rounds I had already deprimed and the primer pocket gauged @.244. Thats .40 difference in primer well sizes. I could be off just a hair on my measurements, BUT I know I am close to being exact. Once before and I put it on this site that I had ran across some casings with small primer pockets but they were marked NT(non toxic) however this casing is NOT marked. I encourage all who reload to carefully inspect your rounds prior to reloading as it is easy to just assume that all primer wells are the same and they are not. Do not take anything for granted. Should anyone else run across this situation, please let me know what type of casings you have run across (brand or name or some sort of ID for the round).

Tommy
 

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Reloader54
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63 Posts
I've come across this as well. I've also found out that depending on who makes the .45acp ammo that you do in fact need to look at the primers. I bought some reloaded .45acp ammo at a gun show and when I was putting them into a ammo box I noticed that the primers looked like they were smaller than what I was use to seeing. so what I've done is to have to bags/boxes for my brass. One for large primers and one for small primers. That way I know that I won't get them mixed up when I'm reloading. And I do some times pick up spend brass at my gun club and I go through it when I get home to make sure that they are not mixed for when I need to reload ammo. And this is now happening more and more. you just need to know about it and make sure that you check when you're reloading ammo. because it is becoming more common with the .45acp ammo to find small primers being used. you just need to be aware of this issue and look out for them mixed in with you brass.
 

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I am guessing it was a result of costs cutting.
 

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Premium Member
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I found some small primer cases while depriming .45 auto cases today - range brass. They were all Blazer brass. I put them in the recycling bin, because I don't want to mess with them. The 'why are they using small primers' question I don't know the answer to. Near as I can find out small primers do the job OK in .45 auto cases, so maybe the question is why they got started on using large primers.
 

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Tommycourt
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2,139 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I am doing some research on this subject now. From what I have gathered presently, Winchester White Box sold by Wal-Mart is using it as a low cost ammo to promote ammo sales. Also the small primers are starting to appear in Blazer ammo. I am not quite sure but it has something to do with the stephnyte in the large pistol primers and manufacturers are trying to cut down on the amount used. I need to verify this. I also wrote to Federal and asked them the purpose and how we are supposed to identify the ammo when purchased. There is no indication on the box nor on some of the rounds. Presently all I can verify is I have run across both the NT rounds and the small primers without any markings on the casings. I just happen to notice this when I was depriming. I have HEARD a story that Dillon had a small primer in one of their reloaders and it went off when being put into a round and the whole primer tube blew up however this, so far, is just a story and I cannot verify it. I would encourage ALL reloaders to inspect your rounds very carefully before you attempt to reload any rounds. Winchester supposedly also has a small primer round on the market for .45 and 9mm. When and IF I hear back from Federal I will relay any information on to this site so we can better understand their reasoning for this re markedly stupid procedure. Don't take anything for granted!!!! Inspect all rounds!!

Tommy
 

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Tommycourt
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2,139 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I have called Federal Cartridge Company today and was not able to get a hold of an engineer or someone who knows about the small primers in the .45 caliber brass. They took my phone number and name and said they would get back to me, however they didn't know when. VT has stated that he has run across Blazer brass with small primers also. Anymore I don't even try to reload Blazer brass even though I hand prime with a Lyman hand primer. For some reason, it will not accept the primer however at the time I was trying to reload them, I did not (like an idiot) take the time to notice if the primer pocket was smaller or not. When I get Blazer brass, scrounging at the range, or have bought some boxes, I just toss the brass. That adds to your cost of reloading and adds to the misery of having to sort through all the .45 rounds. I sort my rounds regardless, however it is very easy to NOT notice the primer well size. I also clean all my primer pockets before reloading and after I have them deprimed. The small primers will deprime without a problem however it's when you reprime you notice the difference. I have a Dillon Square D reloader and was thinking of changing it from 9mm over to .45ACP, however, presently I am reluctant to make any changes. I would caution all who reload to really and carefully inspect your rounds prior to doing any part of the reloading process. Just MHO however, I have said this repeatedly: DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED!!

Tommy
 

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When I deprime cases (50 at a time) I put them in the loading block case rim up. This makes it relatively easy to spot small primer pockets - they look different by contrast with the large pockets near by.
 

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Tommycourt
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2,139 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ryan from Federal Cartridge Company just returned by call concerning the small primer pocket situation. Federal is going to continue to use small pistol primers due to the cost savings the company can achieve. Another case of Corporate Greed. The rounds you can purchase at Wally-World are more than likely to have small pistol primers. All of the low ended rounds will have these small primers, so buyer beware! Prior to purchasing the "cheapies" at your LGS or Wally-World, take time to open the box and check the primer size. He stated since it's not required by SAAMI they have no obligation nor need to mark the boxes or even the rounds. I expressed to him that it could possibly cost them some sales however he did not seem phased by my comment. As far as I am concerned, Federal rounds will not longer be on my "to buy" list. I also mentioned that on many progressive loaders, unless you are consistant in your observations, they could become a safety hazard. Again his response was it has not been noted in SAAMI and they will continue as they please. You have the whole story now- you can decide for yourself. Choose wisely OB1.

Tommy
 

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Tommycourt
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2,139 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
When I deprime cases (50 at a time) I put them in the loading block case rim up. This makes it relatively easy to spot small primer pockets - they look different by contrast with the large pockets near by.
VT,
I agree with you. I have wooden loading boxes that I use when I am pouring powder and getting ready to load bullets. My boxes hold 50 rounds, so it's not uncommon for me to load 50 and then I check about every 3rd or 4th round with my case gauge. I know this takes extra time, but time in on my side and I don't think you can be too careful when reloading. When I am depriming is when I notice the small primer wells. I generally deprime and then check the rounds for any bad dents (gusting), cracks or the head having too many dents from being reloaded a lot of times. Then I clean the primer wells and inspect them as the first stage of my reloading.My first stage of reloading is resizing the casing. I am a firm believer in having clean primer wells. May sound silly but I have yet to have a round stuck in the barrel on my .45s'. How much or how many times do you folks reload before you clean the primer wells? It would save me a lot of time but for me, safety comes first.

Tommy
 

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My new Taurus PT92 gun manual states do not use reloaded or hand loaded ammo as it could void the warranty. I guess they are saying that because a bad reload could blow up the gun and they are not going to cover the damages from a bad reload round. Could they prove a round was a reload that caused the damage?
I was surprised the manual also states NOT to dry fire this gun.
 

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90 Posts
I've read on other IGF's that 45 ACP rounds with small primers in them were originally produced by various ammunition companies owned by the Alliant Techsystems (ATK), Sports Group; and, if memory serves me correctly small primers first began appearing in Blazer cartridges before any of the other ATK corporation-owned brands.

(This means that the vast majority of small arms ammunition* - both military, and commercial - presently manufactured in the Western World is coming from, essentially, the exact same source - Right!)


* Primers, too! ;)
 

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Patriot
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2,160 Posts
My new Taurus PT92 gun manual states do not use reloaded or hand loaded ammo as it could void the warranty. I guess they are saying that because a bad reload could blow up the gun and they are not going to cover the damages from a bad reload round. Could they prove a round was a reload that caused the damage?
I was surprised the manual also states NOT to dry fire this gun.
A guy would have to really screw up big to blow up a gun with a reload. We can't blame the manufacturers for telling us not to use reloads.
Too many people search the manuals for the maximum amount of powder listed anywhere, use that and call it a 'by the book load'.
There's much more to it than that in order to make a good, safe load that does not over work the firearm.

I don't see how they could possibly prove reloads were used if you clean the gun and don't tell em you used reloads.
If the manual tells you not to dry fire, use snap caps to protect the firing pin. The manufacturer probably knows what's best for their product.
 
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