Capacity as it relates to safety

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by conservative, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. conservative

    conservative New Member

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    We have probably all heard the joke about gun control or variations thereof where someone says something like "the only gun control I believe in is when I have control of a gun." My question is whether any of the high capacity lovers have thought about the possibility of their gun being wrested from them in a scuffle and turned on them. I don't remember the statistics on accuracy, but let's just say for example that someone is able to achieve 50% accuracy under stress. That's probably not realistic (correct me if I'm wrong). So now let's say that you have a gun with 17 round capacity. That would be about 8 accurate shots . And once again being generous, let's say all 8 shots so far have been accurate and effective. Yes 8 shots into the average person should be more than enough. But what if it's not? What if the BG attacks you and takes control of your gun? Are you concerned about those eight rounds that are now under the command of the BG? I know that this question is somewhat unrealistic with a lot of "what if?" . But I thought it might be interesting to consider.
     
  2. greg_r

    greg_r Well-Known Member

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    I do not have statistics but I would wager that it would be probable that you lose control of your gun in one of two ways. First would be before any shots are fired, and second would be that you came out on the losing end and you are down.

    As to capacity, I had never felt handicapped by having only 5 or 6 rounds, typical revolver capacity. I live rural and threats around here usually crawl on their belly or walk on 4 feet. Threats of the human kind are rare but normally involve only a single person. In 2009 I took another job away from home and rented an apartment in town. Suddenly threats walked on 2 feet and came in groups. Before 2009 I did not own a centerfire handgun that carried more than 8 rounds.

    And yes, I would be concerned if anyone had control of any of my firearms without my permission.
     

  3. conservative

    conservative New Member

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    So then what does two or three extra rounds really do for you? Some might say there is an advantage since reloading only requires you to insert another mag, but other than the more is better theory, I don't see too much advantage. I could understand if you had chosen a semi that had 12 + but just two extra rounds doesn't give much advantage. Imho.
     
  4. Tommycourt

    Tommycourt Tommycourt

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    I wouldn't worry about capacity as much as I would concern myself with accuracy. Accuracy takes precedence over capacity. That is why we all practice. You can never practice too much which includes drawing from the holster. You could have an Uzi or another high capacity and never hit anything. The only reason for "spray and pray" is for covering fire so your companion can advance on the BG. If you practice enough, build up that muscle memory, you can fire or return fire with confidence.
    Practice*********Practice***********Practice!!! I cannot express that enough.

    Tommy
     
  5. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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    ^^^This! This!!! This!!!^^^

    Only hits count. Protracted gunfights are exceedingly rare for regular civilians. If you have a 5 shot snubby revolver, become proficient with it and be confident that you're well armed. Practice reloading from a speedloader or a strip. Get good at it and don't worry about what others say. Or carry a 15 +1 auto if you want to and be proficient with it too. The point is to know how to handle the gun you choose like its a part of you. What exactly that gun is, matters less than what you are capable of doing with it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  6. conservative

    conservative New Member

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    Your kinda missing my point. But anyway ... I know capacity is of less importance than accuracy. In short can a large capacity be a danger if things go bad ? There are multiple instances of police officers having their guns taken and used against them. So it can happen even to those who are supposed to be trained .
     
  7. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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    If the baddie gets your gun away from you you are neck deep in trouble whether you got 1 bullet left in the gun or 15. This is just my opinion, and maybe some of the veterans or former LE professionals here would say otherwise, but I just don't think the capacity of your gun is much of a factor in a situation like you're describing. I hope one of our former professionals chimes in here. I'd like to hear their take.
     
  8. SavageGuy

    SavageGuy Active Member

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    It's highly unlikely that you'll have time to shoot 17 rounds. But, then again, you might, especially if they're multiple attackers.
    If you let the bad guy get your gun, regardless of how much ammo it's got, you're screwed. In fact, you're actually dead, not just screwed.

    I think capacity is always an added benefit, never a hindrance. But, I'd rather get shot in the foot with a .357 than get shot with a .22 short in the neck.

    Shot placement is everything!
    From a hunters perspective, I've shot and killed literally hundreds of animals. Be it deer, turkeys, rabbits, squirrels you name it. If you hit em in the right spot, they're going down. If you hit em in the guts, better start tracking........

    Accuracy is more important than capacity or caliber. What's the point of carrying a 500 magnum if ya can't hit crap with it? Better off carrying a .22 if you can at least get your shots on target.


    Try and shoot some guns before you make a choice. Also, carry guns, (talking about the small ones, there are some crazy people here who carry huge 1911's around )
    Are alot harder to shoot. Bigger guns are easier to shoot. (Unless you're Hickok45, but he's weird in that sense)

    So, if you don't like shooting your gun, you're not going to practice. Practice makes perfect!
     
  9. conservative

    conservative New Member

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    Thanks for the input! Still would like to hear how adding two or three rounds to ones capacity is a great advantage. Will be testing guns as soon as possible. Again just trying to bounce questions off people to get some ideas and learn .
     
  10. greg_r

    greg_r Well-Known Member

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    "Before 2009". I routinely carry 17 + 1 now. Do I think I'll likely need 17 rounds? No, but I now subscribe to the "I sure wish I didn't have as much ammunition as I did" group.

    Not against a revolver, I actually like the things. Away from work and at home, you will likely find me with a revolver. And while you will not see me with extra speed loaders or magazines, I do carry a BUG, so I generally have at least 10 - 12 rounds on me anyways.
     
  11. greg_r

    greg_r Well-Known Member

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    Who you calling crazy? :). I actually find that carrying a full size 1911 IWB is not that difficult. A 5 1/2" barrelled N frame is a little trickier. When dress allows, suit or winter months, a shoulder holster makes either quite easy.
     
  12. SavageGuy

    SavageGuy Active Member

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    OK, imma go ahead and do this.

    Typical carry revolver (J frame, LCR) 5 rds, sometimes 6

    Single stack 9mm (lc9, kahr cw9, sw shield) 7 rds


    Double stack 9mm compact, typically 10-12 rds.

    Full size double stack 9mm, 16-19 rds.


    For me, I'd rather carry a single stack 9mm, that weighs 17 oz and carries comfortably and sacrifice the extra 3-5 rounds I'd gain if I moved to a double stack. Double stacks will weigh about 23-26 ozs.

    If I feel I need more capacity, I move to a full size gun. About 30 ozs and up, mine takes 17 or 19 round magazines. Not nearly as comfortable to carry, but it gives you a sense if security that a little gun doesn't.
     
  13. havasu

    havasu In the army now..

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    When I was in the police academy in the early '80s, We had a local police officer come into our class to explain what had happened to him. He was on an undercover sting involving an outlaw motorcycle group. The crap hit the fan, and he shot the bad guy with (28) 9mm rounds, with 4 shots described as "kill" shots. Unfortunately, the BG was still able to approach another officer and kill him with one shotgun blast before dying himself. Strange things happen, and this is why I will always opt for as many rounds as possible.
     
  14. phideaux

    phideaux Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Being trained with the 1911 , when I was in the military, just stuck with me, and I could never get that feel and the way it shoots out of my mind.

    I will probably carry one till I die.

    I have not found it hard to carry concealed at any time,
    Yeah maybe it prints a little , when only a summer T shirt is over it,
    I don't care.

    I have gone thru many holster and different ways to carry over the years, and I still forget that its there,
    Now , I have went with a shorter barrel, and a Remora holster with a a good belt to keep it pull up against my body.

    But, I practice , and shoot it better than any other handgun,(ummm Tommy),

    Therefore with 8 rounds and my "NATURAL TO ME" 1911 will be the best for me, maybe not for everyone.
    For me I had rather shoot this 45 than a lightweight 357, as far as target follow up shots.

    100_4473_zpse6d0231c.jpg

    Its gotta be your choice.



    Jim
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  15. allenr

    allenr Member

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    I agree with tommycourt's post #4 above. It is about accuracy under stress. If you can master the adds Adrenaline rush, get past the fear reaction and hit the target with the first couple shots the ammo payload in your gun is not going to make much difference.

    On the Corps I carried an M1911 with two extra magazines in the belt pouch. So I had 21 rounds and I never felt like I needed more.

    I used to carry 7 +1 in my LC9s and one extra magazine so my payload was 15 rounds. I recently added an extra magazine increasing the payload to 22 rounds. I feel more than adequately prepared with that. Unless I am shooting at someone who has cover I don't expect to need more that the 7 + 1 on the gun. But I prepare for the worst case scenario.
     
  16. MagBlackhawk

    MagBlackhawk Patriot

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    ^^ "There are multiple instances of police officers having their guns taken and used against them" *
    * Depends on how we define multiple instances *


    See havasu's post #13.
    I'm betting this scenario better defines multiple instances with police as well as the public.

    Not exactly on point but the 1986 FBI Miami shootout also comes to mind.

    So no, when things go bad you are likely to need More ammo not Less, IMO.


    :GadsdenFlag:
     
  17. VThillman

    VThillman Active Member

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    Being a Vermont hillbilly, I am always observant of 'style' as a clue to motive. the member conservative would prick my ears up, if they still pricked.
     
  18. RavenU

    RavenU In the army now..

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    Nope, I've never heard that one; but, then again, I've only been doing these things for, something like, a half century. ;)

    (I have heard jokes about trigger and/or front sight control, though.)

    Yeah, I've heard of it; and, for many years, that's 'Why' I carried a BUG in either my opposite side front pocket, or else on the other side of my gunbelt; but to be perfectly honest with you, while I've had a few people try to steal a gun from me, nobody has ever tried to wrest a gun away from me while it was still in my possession.

    Another thing: I've worked on many a firing line; and, for an indisputable fact, I'd guesstimate that a good 90% of the general public and, at least, 75% of law enforcement don't enjoy 50% accuracy with a pistol; and it doesn't matter whether or not any kind of stress is involved.

    If you want to see highly consistent 50%, or better, accuracy then it's off to: PPC, IDPA, or USPSA shooting matches and/or practice sessions. 'Why'? Because even the GSSF matches I've attended didn't routinely produce that sort of popular accuracy for most of the shooters.

    As long as the distance is at or greater than 7 1/2 yards, consistently hitting inside the, '8 ring' or, '9 ring' is NOT typical for most pistol shooters; and, especially not when they're firing fast.

    In most situations those shots won't be. What you've really got to worry about is (Ready?) (1) How many targets are you faced with; and (2) who gets to fire the first accurate shot, or shots — The first accurate shot to COM can, and often does, make all of the difference in who gets to walk away!

    Trust me on this: I'm a Certified Pistol Instructor, as well as a highly skilled, accurate, and fast firing pistolero. One of only two out of the dozen, or so, other pistol instructors I know; and, I'm pretty sure I can, 'dust-off' the other instructor anytime I feel like it. (I don't because it would be rude; and I don't need the hard feelings.)

    Show me an average walk-in, 'Saturday morning pistol shooter'; and I'll show you someone who will make (at best) only one solid hit BEFORE either missing or making only weak peripheral hits with all of his other, repetitive, rapid fire, pistol shots.

    What you are suggesting for an average pistol shooter to accomplish is a very difficult thing to do; and it takes more time, more practice, and more ammunition expense than most gun owners are willing to invest.

    20 + years ago I gave up my beloved Smith & Wesson Model 19 snub-nosed revolver in exchange for a Colt, Series 70, Mark IV, 1911 pattern 45 ACP pistol. Then about 12 years ago I stopped carrying my primo Mark IV, and started carrying a crappy, high capacity, Glock Model 21.

    'Why'? Because the world in which I live is changing; and I couldn't help, but, noticed that nowadays 'the mutts' have started running in packs! (Probably because of all the Mexican druggers and street gangs that are, now, far more prevalent and much more widely dispersed throughout American society than they have ever been before.)

    So far I haven't regretted the decision to upgrade to carrying an ugly, high capacity, black plastic pistol. 'Why, again'? Because those extra rounds give me a greater, more viable opportunity to MORE REALISTICALLY DEFEND MYSELF against multiple attackers — Which in today's seriously godless, and obscenely debauched world COULD AND, IN FACT, ALREADY HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED; AND MORE THAN ONCE, TOO!

    In today's America lawlessness abounds; the prisons are filled to overflowing; the Ten Commandments are stone-cold dead; and I don't want to be joining them, anytime soon! Neither do I intend to, 'die on my knees' begging some Middle Eastern fanatic for my life — Which, again, in today's America could easily happen! (Hillary, Obama, the 'Washington swamp', and the duplicitous, constantly vituperating, organized news media can love 'um; but I won't!)

    Want to know something else? In the past 10 or 12 years I've only very rarely fired a single pistol shot. Once the pistol comes out of the holster everything I fire is double, triple, and multiple, 'taps'; and fast — very fast! Inside the world in which I live I don't see anybody (other than, perhaps, Hillary :D ) taking a gun away from me.

    Sure it's possible; but, hypothetical stuff like that doesn't usually happen; and, if it ever did, then it would be with even less frequency than, let's say, me getting into an auto accident; and I can't remember the last time something like that occurred in my life. (Well, maybe, a half million miles ago — OK!) :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  19. spikedriver

    spikedriver Active Member

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  20. conservative

    conservative New Member

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    Thanks! I realize this was a very unrealistic example. Just wanted thoughts on the question which was sandwiched between all the made up and exaggerated stuff. I fail to understand what style cues spikedriver and VT are seeing. Just trying to learn while I wait to receive my gun permit. Thanks to RavenU for his over use of abbreviations! Lol!